So since gamers of the 80s grew up with games where you're constantly saving princesses, does that mean that generation is respectful, helpful and courteous towards women? Absolutely not. These bullshit arguments are always easy to deflate when you invert them.

This is a little skewed, actually. Most of the games which involved saving a princess either didn't involve the various actions involved in being kind to the royalty in question (Saving the princess in Super Mario Bros, for instance, was something that simply happened once the game was finished: You didn't give her flowers or compliments, open doors for her, listen to her complain, etc), or weren't popular. Besides, from what I observed, such games also promoted a misogynistic attitude. Most of the people I knew who played Super Mario Bros. did quite a bit of theorizing on the sexual exploits which followed the end of the game. I can further deduce that this is not entirely isolated to my area or circle of acquaintances owing to the sheer number of pornographic "hacks" which exist for the game.

On the other hand, a lot of RPGs involve the actual process of wooing a woman. Observe the behavior of a Lunar or Final Fantasy fan towards women.

The process you were just using is generally referred to as a "straw man argument". And shouldn't /.ers be insulted at the insinuation?

On the other hand, a lot of RPGs involve the actual process of wooing a woman. Observe the behavior of a Lunar or Final Fantasy fan towards women.

They tend to either let women stomp all over them or become so nervous that they can't even talk to them. Then the woman goes out with an abusive jock and the fan says something like, "Why won't that dumb bitch go out with someone that can respect her like me?"

So, what was your point?

Rob (BTW, the idea that most of the Final Fantasy games "involve the actual process of wooing a woman" is hilarious)

Oh, and his argument is supposed to be weak as an illustration of how weak Lieberman's is. The fact that saving the princess at the end of SMB isn't necessarily boosting the feminist agenda just strengthens StocDred's point (that killing people in GTA doesn't necessarily promote killing in real life).

And let's be honest... Leiberman isn't saying that kind of crap to start an intellectually valid argument. He's just doing what politicians do: say whatever the current audience wants to hear. The point is that there's no single bullet explanation that says video game violence will forever mar the current generation.

Everybody always considers it absurd that good gaming could instantly cause good behavior, but it's a foregone conclusion that bad gaming instantly causes bad behavior.

Let's be honest again...Lieberman doesn't always say what's sure to get an applause from the crowd. Quite the opposite, he is booed a lot for expressing a view he thinks is right...probably why he's so far behind in the polls. I don't neccessarily agree with him on GTA, and many ppl here have made good points in countering his argument, but you have to admit there is cause for some discussion, and maybe even a little bit of alarm, when conversations like, "I went to smash the windows of all the stores at the mall, but then the cops chased me, so I shot them with the shotgun and escaped in my stolen car" become common occurrences.

when conversations like, "I went to smash the windows of all the stores at the mall, but then the cops chased me, so I shot them with the shotgun and escaped in my stolen car" become common occurrences.

And when will that be?

give her flowers or compliments, open doors for her, listen to her complain, etc

Oh, yeah, that sounds like a best seller right there. Get coding, we'll sweep those copies of GTA right off the shelves! :D